Podcast Show #3


The Boiling Frogs Presents Philip Giraldi

BFP Podcast logo

Philip Giraldi discusses the Israel Lobby, Larry Franklin, the recent scandal involving Representative Jane Harman, the continuous erosion of our civil liberties, and much more.

Philip Giraldi is a former CIA and DIA counter-terrorism officer, member of the American Conservative Defense Alliance, and contributing editor at The American Conservative magazine. He has a regular column, Smoke & Mirrors, on Antiwar.com.

Here is our guest Philip Giraldi unplugged!

FB Like

Share This

This site depends….

This site depends exclusively on readers’ support. Please help us continue by SUBSCRIBING and/or DONATING.

Comments

  1. Metemneurosis says:

    Finally the truth behind the American Empire revealed.

  2. I've seen more than one personally modified vehicle that runs on water with my own eyes.

  3. Sibel Edmonds says:

    Greetings,

    Still traveling. This is a great country (so far;-).
    After tomorrow I'll be in one place for a week. Hopefully I'll be able to post a few things.

    Janet: I am thankful to BradBlog for covering the latest, and for doing it professionally. As for other issue you mentioned: has nothing to do with me. I have kept my distance from those kinds of absurd 'blog gossip & socializing.' I will not change that. My priorities in life: being the best mother I can be to my daughter solo, and a very few friends, and trying to do my part for truth and justice (tiny little part that I can humbly contribute). These people must have nothing to do in life other than cheap talk, stalking, gossip or whatever…I am trying to do my best to keep this blog/site from people like that… enough said.

  4. Eric Pottenger says:

    this comment is directed to Anon the Neocon.

    Anon, your comments to this blog have intrigued me since I started visiting this site. I have oftentimes asked myself why you visit here–it seems you disagree with about every perspective that's posted. I imagine you as an old, grumpy school teacher, trying to talk "adult" sense to an unruly class of middle schoolers. are you trying to "teach" here, learn here, or what? your stance doesn't seem to be one of genuine respect, which is fine, but it also means you don't "share" with the same intensity as the rest. maybe I'm mistaken. a little insight might help me solve to riddle.

    moving on, your comments about democracy and freedom and dictatorship are worthy of discussion, as you seem to equate "democracy" with "freedom," which is pretty absurd if you think about it.

    I've been turning pages in one of Walter Lippmann's old books as of late, specifically his book "The Phantom Public," in which he outlines his views regarding the value of public information and public power in a democratic society. he concludes that the information the public receives should be directed toward their emotional support of decisions OTHERS have made; that, in a modern democracy, the public hasn't the time, awareness, or know-how to be an actual participant in the administrative functions of society. and yet they are numerous; and most importantly, they THINK that, since they live in democracies, they are part of the process. how to address this political and social discord, this is the role of the social propagandist in modern DEMOCRATIC society.

    has "democracy" changed? let us take a look: un-democratic power structure; un-democratic distribution of spoils; un-democratic distribution of guns; un-democratic distribution of planning and education; un-democratic distribution of the instruments to "manufacture consent" (the phrase is Lippmannn's, or maybe Edward Bernays'–not Chomsky).

  5. Eric Pottenger says:

    to anon the neocon, continued:

    so just what is it about this idea, this so-called democracy that you support?

    to me, your democracy sounds like a tranquilizer. it sounds like the world today. it sounds like bullshit.

    of course I'm yet another pampered American; I should have nothing to complain about, right?

    to say that I truly have a "democratic spirit" is different, to my mind, than saying I support or believe in your neocon democracy.

    this "democracy" you speak of, what is it?

    I'm not trying to get all first-year government on you but this idea of "freedom" as "democracy" seems childish, much like our normal public discourse; much like Lippmann thought our discourse should be limited to: an emotional appeal, nothing more.

    here's a question: how can any intelligent discourse about political systems be divorced from an analysis of political and economic power?

    if you were genuinely concerned with elevating the public discourse with illuminating perspectives, wouldn't you not spend more time discussing the 'real world' of power and self-interest, meaning, economic, political, national, etc., and not just empty political philosophy that, obviously, conceals more than it reveals?

    or perhaps you somehow believe that such a realpolitik analysis is evidence of some crude, angry, class-conscious Marxian rubbish; some "conspiracy theorist" taken hostage by an emotional assault?

    but the question DOES need asking: where does power and self-interest lie in your scheme of things?

    you can get specific if you'd like. please. get specific.

    here's another curiosity of mine (as you claim to be a "neocon" perhaps you can provide me with an answer): recently I've been trying to figure out whether "neoconservative" is closer to defining a "type of person," or closer to an "ideological point-of-view."

    you claimed above that "a true neocon is rigorous about Democracy."

    now, to my understanding, "democracy" can be looked upon as both a means and an end. so which is it that the neocons are more closely aligned? which is it that YOU are more closely aligned? perhaps my perspective has been limited in unhealthy ways, but it seems the neocons I've uniformly read about are the most fervent supporters of troop build-ups and coercive manipulation of civic institutions, which certainly isn't consistent with democracy as "means."

    how does one separate "means" from "ends"? this is a fair question, wouldn't you agree.

    I've got more curiosities, but I'll wait first for your responses.

  6. Anonymous says:

    Why thank, Mr Kingfish. .. still passing out the matza ball kool aid down under I presume.

    And thank you for correcting my speling – I want to be just like you – a master editor of thought and draft.

    So – you ride a 3 horse source – all C-SPAN celebs and ZOG publishing house shills.

    I read what architects and engineers have to say about high quantities of high quality US weapons grade nano thermite in the NYC dust , and you NYC taste of the towners – who by some chance – and only known to you – are able to cite absolute truth that magically passed through the censors inside ZOG's hardcover pulp fiction rag houses.

    Straight out of Balfour, through to Versailles and finally to land on a checkout rack of Wal Mart allowed Zen for the phony tough and quasi intellectual wine tasting sissies of the self aggrandized priests of smarty pants known for knowing all stuff of fluff in the lame brain popular reader series.

    You look in the mirror and say, "What a guy!" while most who endure the intrusion of your form say "A tender flank for my barbecue spit!"

    You say Obviously I can’t speak for ‘Anon the NeoCon’, and I say you provide him with an excellent reason to keep plenty K&Y on stock – on hand – and on the ham! Come on – admit it – you're lover's – don't play coy or be shy – the comment area doesn't have a "don't ask don't tell policy" you little tart. You found the quarter in his pocket – and haven't looked back since!

    And you claim I spend my day trolling the conspiracy theory mill Since when is CNN, CBS, the BBC, the UN, the CBC, the Guardian, etc – since when are those rumor mills. But a very clever 101 challenge – I'd have never thought you'd reach such heights of brilliance after only 3 paragraphs and just before 3 bibliographies of off the shelf ZOG pulp!

    What a man!!!!! (_|_)

  7. Metemneurosis says:

    @Anon the Neocon Look let me first say that I do for the most part enjoy having your dissenting voice around. Sometimes I get genuinely annoyed at what you say. I'm sure you're genuinely annoyed by me too. But I also have to say that the comments you've made on this thread almost don't even sound like you. I seriously started to wonder if it was someone else playing a prank. Your sudden change of attitude seems almost inexplicable to me unless you're really angered by something Ms. Edmonds revealed. Perhaps it's just that you think the behavior of these congressmen and women was par for the course and, in your eyes, a necessity for the strategic interest of the country and you're upset that it's being exposed. If that's what it is then you're a lot more like Perle than I had supposed originally when you said that you cared more about democracy than some of your compatriots. Isn't it a necessity for democracy that the public be informed about what they're representative's are doing in order to be able to vote for the government they want. If they don't even know the people they're really voting for it might as well be eeny meeny minee mo. You don't seem to upset that this isn't getting public coverage for the sake of democracy.

    On Hamas, I'm genuinely interested here, please point me to evidence that they present a threat to any future democratic process in Palestine. I don't mean this to be sarcastic or a challenge because I think you can't meet it. The Palestinian conflict is a pet issue of mine.

    In any case you're saying that Kristol and Perle have done more for this country than . . . whoever is really, literally jaw dropping to me. I had expected you to make a more dismissive response and say something like 'not all neocons are alike'.

    William Kristol strikes me as a man obsessed with an ideology and willing to do anything to see those who will further that ideology get and remain in power, democratic values be damned. Perle strikes me the same way except that he also seems to be much more concerned with Israel. I can't believe that Perle would want to let the public in on any of his schemes nor would he be too worried if he had to sidestep any basic democratic institutions to further his goals. Democracy building seems more like a good public relations spin to me. I'm sure he just sees it as a means to his end. 'Callous', 'dissembling', 'ruthless', 'calculating' are the words that come to mind. I'd also add 'cold-blooded murderer', 'pathological liar', and 'self-deluded', and 'megalomaniac' to Perle's list. And probably 'racist' too.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Sibel Edmonds is featured throughout this article, August 14, 2009. It would be interesting to find out how much of the article matches Sibel's story:
    http://www.daily.pk/uighur-nationalism-turkey-and-the-cia-8798/

    Regards,
    "Tom Joad"

  9. Anonymous says:

    Trying to keep it on topic. Mr. Giraldi seems to be overlooked. Much of what I got from his interview implicated Israeli Mossad and AIPAC. The current thread seems to have digressed but certainly Turkey becomes key to this story as Sibel has said all along. Metem has particular concern about the Palestinian issue, so let's tie that in. I heard Jerry Levin speak. He escorts Palestinian children to school despite settler abuse from Hebron. It became the critical moment when I decided I could no longer support the Zionist state of Israel. I became conflicted, because I have many dear Jewish friends. My religious beliefs also reminded me that taking on Jewish issues was fraught with danger.
    I think some of the answer may lie in the excerpt I lifted from Wikipedia: The Khazars were a semi-nomadic Turkic people who dominated the Pontic steppe and the North Caucasus from the 7th to the 10th century CE. The name 'Khazar' seems to be tied to a Turkic verb form meaning "wandering".
    In the 7th century CE, the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea . Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists , many converted to the Abrahamic faiths through interaction with the Byzantine Empire & successive Islamic caliphates; during the eighth or ninth century, the Khaganate adopted Judaism as state religion. At their height, the Khazars and their tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Northern Caucasus ( Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya), parts of Georgia and the Crimea.
    Tengri shamanists: Here is a critical digression for those involved in this thread. Shamanism is poorly understood by most westerners. Oral traditions can accurately transmit information over thousands of years. I know this first hand from another shamanic tradition. There is also an experiential scientific component that is too alien to this group to more than allude to. (See 'Men Who Stare at Goats' for the first tentative western steps in this direction.)
    The question then becomes relevant to AIPAC and the Israeli Mossad. Are these rogue elements within the nation of Israel? Do the Khazar Jews influence policy for the nation of Israel?
    Who are the faces of these people in our present day? What is the link with Lee Hamilton and Zbignew Brezinski in the Obama Administration?

    Simon

  10. Anonymous says:

    State agencies and commissions are infested with "operatives". Especially in the economic development, communications and energy sectors. Check out the "qualifications" of the individual at the end of this article; ) http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/116391.html

  11. Anonymous says:

    This is strange, too bad Mrs. Edmunds was not at post in 1993. Rare TV NEWS report about WTC bombing FBI Foreknowledge. It should be common knowledge to most that the lead investigator for the 1993 bombing was none other than Israeli citizen and future first fuhrer of our very famous prison building Black Water / Xe contracting Department of Homeland Security and Angry Chromes Afflicted Poster Boy, Michael "the jerkoff" Chertoff. Incidentally, we might note that Chertoff's 1993 partner in crime in the investigation of the Trade Center bombing affair was non other than straight laced TV poker face but never wins a big case, old Mr. Podium Prosecutor, and now newly ordained protector of the new Ken Doll in the Whore House, Patty Fitzgerald.

    It might also be helpful to review a never spoken in the mainstream action against many of the small fry /11 kapos that the good citizens of San Diego went so far as to indict, including none other than, and our very famous HLS fuhrer Mike the Half-Dike Chertoff and giggly cross dressing tinsel podium queen, Rude Rudy Guiliani in 2007 for destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice related to their rolls in crime of /11.

    Back on topic: I wonder, should Mrs. Edmunds drop by, if she knew or ever spoke to Coleen Rowley, and, if so, if there are any tidbits of conversation she might share with us?

  12. Anonymous says:

    You Go Girl

    Dr. Deniz briefly remembered Demos Shakarian from the story of the Boy Prophet who had warned many Armenians to flee before the massacre. Deniz had managed to get his daughter out via Turkey through Azerbaijan. Wander into the Blue Mosque with sunlight filtering through domed vaults onto jewel encrusted crowns. Have a strong Turkish coffee, equal parts grounds and sugar with a dash of hot water. Take in a sauna, and allow 200 lb behemoths to walk expertly down your spine. Spend the night with a hundred hippies, guarding your rucksack even in sleep. Walk from Istanbul along the waterfront to the train station to board for Tehran. Exotic whores would approach every youth with offer of their wares. Most passed on to meet an urgent train schedule. That was the '70's.
    In the mid '80's Aram Gulezyian lived in Tucson, Arizona. His son Michael was an accomplished guitarist, playing with the likes of Leo Kopke. Aram had recorded forgotten Oud compositions evoking strong Persian influence on Armenian Christians. That was a happier time before bitter divisions between Muslim and Christian. Aram also had a sarod modified to play electronically. He foresaw, twenty years ahead of his time, the fusion of Persian and East Indian ragas. Cha har gah had the same pattern as the Hindi scale of Bhairavi.
    Simeon met Aram in Tucson – two musicians drawn by their love of the mysterious East and its music. Aram had escaped Armenia with a vellum manuscript, original Coptic hymns from the Library of Alexandria. Members of the brotherhood of purity, the Ikwan es Safa, had saved this rare manuscript. Called Harmonium Mundi, or music of the spheres, they were actually six hymns to be sung during different celestial conjunctions. For thirty years, Aram had researched with eminent scholars from the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. A famous curator, Ludloe Bull and Aram had made the final transcription. Now Aram had the transcribed manuscript, but there had been a falling out and Aram's son, Michael, had no interest in middle eastern music. Simeon was still youthful, and Aram was nearing the end of his life. Someone must take the ancient chants and pull their original intent from the Akashic Record. Khazar/tengri shaman understood the mysteries, but had become polluted when they accepted the Jewish faith. Aram charged Simeon with bringing forth music that had not been heard for 1500 years.
    Years passed, and Simeon wandered about, never finding an audience, although he had once played the pieces in Sedona, Arizona beneath the sculpture of the Eye of Horus.

    Dr. Deniz's daughter became enmeshed in the politics in her blood, finding her way to a position with the FBI, as a linguist translating Turkish communications. That revealed the neocon agenda for oil and control of the Middle East. Corruption, heroin, and intrigue had gathered U.S. politics within its tentacles.
    When Anon the Neocon realized that 25,000 readers were following the daughter's revelations, his organization became concerned. Then the geeks in Bangalore got wind of the revelations, the whole thing threatened to go viral. Anon was charged with baiting the bloggers at 123realchange. Begin enough vitriol and the readership would quickly drop. Other explosive sites had been neutralized in this same manner.
    Anon had overlooked one thing. A lot of frogs were seriously pissed off. Someone had changed the heat in the pot too quickly. The old boy had a serious problem with gas that barely allowed him to sleep at night. Simeon mailed an organ composition to Deniz's daughter of the Coptic Hymns. Her next interview was to be with Peter Lance, the author of 'Triple Cross'. she had given sworn testimony that linked Marc Grossman with Turkey. What a fitting way to begin the podcast with the Coptic Hymns evoking ancient celestial harmonies. Cellular memories in the audience would be awakened. Anon was screwed.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Simon,

    I've heard the Khazaar mentioned in discussions of the Ashkenazi. I've read a lot about the Ashkenazi and how they came to be the prominent non-semitic poster face for Jews.

    We are all brainwashed. De Mille's "The Ten Commandments" gave hungry want-to-be-white-Christian families of early sixties American what they were their throbbing identity veins needed a shot of: an Ancient, Oldest of Old Testament Egypt run by white Romanesque and handsome Hungarian Pharaohs, and a just in the nick of time white Moses. Having pretended to participate in all sorts of church and temple rituals, I was always weirded out by the handsome blue eyed blond surfer locked idolatrous pictures of white America's Jesus adorning the halls of Baptist churches all over the south. I was confused – an avid read of both National Geographic and the lingerie section of the Sears catalog, and mostly for the same reason, I still read some articles – and the modern day people in Egypt and Canaan didn't look anything like the Madison Avenue shiny Jesus guy pictures on southern church walls.

    Hebrews were black. Moses was black – and Jesus – despite the renderings was Egyptian – dark skin and kinky haired. Looked nothing like the Aqua Velva Santa Monica surf bum idol on the church hall wall! The guys and gals in the bible are semitic , nary a white blue eyed one among them.

    The Ashkenazi missed the cruise on Noah's Arc and were not spawned from the gamete rich loins of the Iraqi, Abraham. What the Ashkenazi did do – was save their fannies through an emergency overnight conversion to Judea about the same time Islam was born, 1284 AD – or at least when the faith separated itself from it's roots in Judea and Christianity. Islam is like a hybrid religion. The Koran is the Torah! Islam kept a few Christian poets and new testament philosophers, like Jesus, but Judea did not.

    Anyway, when the bright light of the torch Islam's birth almost conquered the world – they had reached and controlled Spain – one of the lands they had to cross was the lands of the Ashkenazi. The Ashkenazi were the predecessors to the very famous, though more recent celebrities, like Vlad the Impaler and Trotsky. And, the 1284 Ashkenazi were aware a very large army of dedicated Islamic warriors was approaching and and that they regarded the heathen practices of the Ashkenazi as the practices of those who had enslaved them – so the Ashkenazi had a town hall of sorts – and the topic was: What can we do to save our asses? Should we defend this place with our (quote) countrymen – should we run – what should we do?

    A guy at the back – a geek of sorts – raised his hand and offered a fact: Islam regards the Jew as a spiritual brother. Maybe if we convert to Judea the warriors will not harm us?

    Immediately, the town hall gathering was abuzz – and finally proposed the question: How do we convert to Judea? A wise man on the council said we don't have to convert, all we have to do is claim that we are Jews when the Islamic Army approaches, and then he added, "My nephew has some "I am Jew" T-Shirts he will let go for 50 scheckles, our an IOU at 6% compound interest.

    This Islamic Warriors conquered the land the Ashkenazi lived in but did not kill anyone wearing the "I am a Jew" T-Shirts. The carnage was intense – dead dismembered bodies all over the place. The conquest of the lands of Ashkenazm in 1284 might be the first, and last recorded time in history Jews, well people claiming to be Jews, actually "stacked" bodies.

    The star of David – I've heard – is a Kahzaar symbol as well.

  14. Anonymous says:

    @Sibel, Have you ever heard the Turkish Name Yoksuloglu used? Thanks and God Bless you.

  15. Edit_Mommies says:

    holy shit I am stupid.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Anon the Neocon-

    @Eric Pottenger

    You ask the most important questions that need to be asked. And there are no easy answers.

    What my "ideology" (to answer another of your questions) does for me – is simplify the world between those born with the political privilege of being able to openly analyze, investigate their world, and proceed to share their results – without judging their validity- and a world in which the penalty for apostasy is death (Pakistan) or for wearing trousers while being a woman 40 lashes (Sudan), or being gay – execution (Iran), or jail time for being raped (Saudi Arabia)!!! Explore there please! Go ask your questions there. Go ask if its ok to at one time freely distribute the Protocols of Zion, and on the other hand, suffer severe torture for questioning your local dictators corruption!

    I am of the fervent conviction, that it is our duty, as those born with this privilege to explore the world around us – without some damned enforced interference from stone-age dogmas, to see that the rest of humanity, eventually share in this pleasure.

    When everyone is born free, everyone will no doubt have opinions different from mine – and yes, they will complain about how terrible their life was – and even end up suggesting it was better under Caligula, Hitler, Stalin, and Bush…but I hope they will have the chance to investigate the world, in the same way you and I do. At present, they don't. And that's all I want. Gratitude not required.

    Am I willing to sacrifice our resources for their benefit. You bet.

    Sadly, that day is very far away when freedom is an equal opportunity employer. Our electorate prefers ignorance, and self-flagellation. A prescription for disaster, if there ever was one. One wonders, what kind of people were capable, at the beginning of the 20th century to muster so much interest in the genocide of Armenians in Anatolia, compared to today's Americans. Because if you read up on the massive efforts in America to raise money for the victims of the 1910s Anatolian persecutions, compared with how many care about Mrs. Edmond's deposition you'll be amazed at who lived here previously. Our ancestors abolished slavery, we cower when called to do the same – because we hate ourselves too much, are too spoiled, and/or it's somebody else- so why bother.

    Mrs. Edmonds and I, agree fundamentally, that this country doesnt' do enough for freedom. Sometimes, it works against it.

    Unlike her, I want it to possess a clear ideology and direction, to promote freedom. I wont cherry pick my interests- here the Kurds, here the Armenians, here the Turks.

    I am interested in the overall picture.

    Unfortunately, when you stop cherry-picking, the first thing you understand, is that while US foreign policy fails on two fronts – both are not equal.

  17. Anonymous says:

    continued from Anon the Neocon-

    The damage caused by malevolence on the part of the establishment, is minuscule. The damage caused by apathy, and lack of involvement, is colossal. It sounds counter-intuitive, but the evidence is clear. Take Africa. No matter what the evidence of malfeasance, it is above all a continent about which no one cares. And it shows. Look at the Congo today. 4 million dead in 8 years?

    "You want me to sacrifice for THEM?"
    We saw it in Somalia.

    Them. Too foreign, too black…freedom – that's our privileged. I guess its "logical" to then hate yourself…ok "logic" in the most absurd sense!

    And please, don't give me the – |why can't they just do it themselves if we left them alone line." Been there, done that. Was it our minuscule interference that got pygmies eaten by rapacious militias. Literally eaten!! Read about it.

    -No – conspiracy theories are so much funner!

    On Walter Lippmann. I think you make a mistake when reading him. You assume he had some kind of impact on our democracy.

    He had insight – but not impact. You belong in a tiny minority who have heard his name. Congratulations. Yes, he is great for a debate. But I don't believe in power being held by secret, unknown little men. That would be too convenient, for those who are busy hiding their own cowardice.

    On Hamas,please – how deep do one's sympathies have to lie to be blind? You are talking about a terrorist organization, which is really better known as the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you really need me to review history for you?

    Then I'll get called a "teacher" lecturing to schoolchildren!

    If you believe they've been banned in the Maghreb because they were nice guys that could win an election – I've got a bridge to sell you.

    @whoever
    yes, I am a bit more unhappy with Mrs. Edmonds than previously. Like I said, I think the credibility is wearing thin. It is easy to get carried away by the group-think and bias, but I don't like claims being made as personal claims, when they really come from other sources and its clear to some of us where they come from.

    Mrs. Edmonds has now gone that route for nearly everything published here.

    I am simply having doubts, as to the nature of her information – and I can be rightfully peeved, for having fell for it.

    There is nothing incriminating in what she says. I don't like the rotating door of politics, but it's not illegal.

    The Turks are members of NATO, and we support their ascension to the EU. That has nothing to do with bribery. That is a position which stems from geostrategic reality. To reduce our relationship to one of criminality (granted some takes place), is myopic. It's fundamentally …sorry – but its ignorant.

  18. Anonymous says:

    For all: MAINE DEFINITION OF LEGAL REPRESSION, Respectfully and Sincerely, Grandpa. http://www.courts.state.me.us/court_info/opinions/documents/97me79al.htm

  19. Anonymous says:

    Novak fingered former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, who the columnist described as not having a political ax to grind, as the primary source for his July 14, 2003, column that first publicly identified Plame, who was the wife of administration critic Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador.

    This was noted in his passing. Sibel's revelation of Marc Grossman remains unaddressed.

    Simon

  20. Anonymous says:

    Anonymous @ Aug 18 11:49

    You need to speak from the heart.

    Your posts are well worded – perhaps overly so – big worded – and lack usable context. It's almost as if your pretending to have a position or view point. It's hard to communicate a point of view of you don't have one.

    You say things like without some damned enforced interference from stone-age dogmas

    And I am asking myself, "What the f*ck is is a stone age dogma?". A high school English or Civics teacher might categorize that statement as a "glitter generality" , sounds fancy but offers little to no real information. It's like speaking without saying anything.

    I can visualize stone age dogma as what some refer to as a dominion heresy. For example, a cult or religion that claims it is "gods only chosen people". Or the ruthless murder for 100's of thousands innocents by a fascist state justifying genocide with the false claim of non existent WMD. Murder, even mass murder, based on a lie is murder in the first degree. A capital crime.

    Let's play and say your friends worked for a bullet factory, and your employers were paying you to protect them. Your friends in the bullet factory, who gave you a lot of money to convince your employers that you would do a good job call in the favor and demand they do something so they can make money selling bullets. The bullet factory sends you an adviser. He fabricates a thin story and a newspaper, or TV channel, that one his buddies has a chair on the board of directors as well being the top dog at another bullet factory that wants free money from your employers. And by fate, act of god or miracle, this buddy also has a brother that's a trained killer, a policeman and will move into the bullet factory business when he retires from the police force so his brother can get closer to all your employers money by landing a job to manage all the money your employers have trusted you with to cover the budget for the services you promised to deliver.

    The bullet factory adviser says – look your employers are stupid. Just tell them your neighbor has a bad attitude, a lot of guns and is planning to kill your employers.

    And so you do. After you kill your neighbors, his family, set the neighborhood on fire and kill others that were not your target, an independent finder of facts goes into your neighbors burned downed house.

    After all the bullets you purchased with the money entrusted you by your employers to payoff the favors from your bullet factory buddies that were used destroy your neighbor's house, the independent finder of fact searches through the stink rising from a gooey layer of syrupy smelly piss puss blood shit and decay that used to be a family coating the floors and wall and discovers that, in fact, your neighbor never had any weapons to harm you and never intended to harm you.

    Who would be the facilitator of stone age dogma? You, your employers that trusted you with the money so you could accidentally turn an innocent neighborhood into a scab, the ambitious and greedy bullet factory guys you owed favors to – or the puss of an innocent family your repayment of a favor caused.

    You talk of conspiracy – tell me – what is a conspiracy – what are the facts as you see them – what are the conspiracy theories that trouble your restless sleep and keep your pretense at intellectualism glued to the mirror reflected through the haze of your posts.

    A string of 101 properly pentameter-ed syllables from a thesaurus is no substitution for the heart or facts.

    Quit with the smarty pants stuff. Don't let false vanity, thin esteem or dogma blind you forever.

    Peace

  21. Eric Pottenger says:

    @anon the neocon

    I appreciate the careful and respectful way you addressed my questions.

    Unfortunately I haven't the time, at present, to give your answers a full response…hopefully later.

    I just wanted to let you know that I'm reading Walter Lippmann, not because I have somehow discovered that he was a member of a secret cabal of the power elite, but because other researchers are suggesting this; and because he did, in fact, attend the Paris Peace Conference on behalf of the Wilson Administration; because he did, in fact, outline the features of the League of Nations many years in advance of Wilson's proposal; because he was, in fact, a high-profile member of the Committee of Public Information (Creel Commission)…and that his work on the media's role in modern democracy and governing appears to be foundational, prophetic, and very honest in its betrayal to democratic sentiments.

    That is why I'm reading Lippmann. In other words, I'm not taking his supposed role as absolute. I'm curious about his role. He just happens to be one of many historical personalities that I must reckon with before moving on.

    I will mention before parting that you share a pose with many otherwise intelligent persons, in that you disparage any notion of conspiracy, largely without sufficient justification. why is that? I agree that many conspiracy theories resemble intellectual pole-vaulters, making hasty judgments before all the facts are in. but this observation is more an indictment against the researchers, not on the phenomenon of conspiracies actually existing.

    does that make sense?

    as for apathy, isn't it (refreshingly) the conspiracy theorists in our midst that have challenged the apathy of our numbers?; have actually developed opinions to defend, which is more than most can say? to my mind, some are perhaps too emotional; some hold opinions that stray too far from empirical fact. but overall, I enjoy their contributions, and I learn from them. a good conspiracy challenges my comfortable worldview, and sometimes what I'm reading seems close to the truth.

    I'm curious to know your perspectives.

  22. Anonymous says:

    Definition is a wondrous thing. ignorance comes in many guises, obviously. Having to digest a world view that has Woodward a 'pleasure to read' and perle and kristol held in awe for "life effort to defend democracy" require magnitude 10 definitional shifts last seen turning "explosion" into "collapse".
    An imperial democracy. You need a vaccine to get it in ya. We are saving the people of the world from their barbarism.com. perle. bolton. negroponte. bush. Reapers, predators cheney and a shotgun into the face of the commi….sorry, terrorists, with right on our side.Because we are the bright boys. We will bring you freedom[tm] and democracy.co. Collateral damage notwithstanding. Just sign here.

  23. Anonymous says:

    The strange thing about the Plame affair and Joe Wilson is how Valerie was made into some sort of iconic here – when in reality she was a paid hack for CIA – Carters CIA Boss said the mission of the CIA was "To buy Treason".

    How many dead and limping non de plume's (forst time I ever used that phrase – i feel so sophisticated!) lay in the wake of her treacherous vain career. Then there's hubby Joe – sure – he should be lauded for outing the Niger Yellow Cake 3 months to late. But that's not all from Sham Wow Joe – he was George 1's assistant to the US ambassador to Iraq, prior to the Saddam's trusting mistake, and was in the room when the US Ambassador gave Saddam the green light to take bait and attack Kuwait for the greatest real time murder boom and blood plunder evening TV viewers could ever hope to see – like how many of considered that there were pregnant Iraqi women caught in the cross hairs of a smart bombs video laser sight that were disemboweled and instantly aborted when the best the west could kill with landed burning fragmenting and vaporizing in their wombs?

    We know what DU is doing to the wombs of the wives of American soldiers – but there's more important stuff to consider – like who will be queen of the ball on American Idol or – how cool our posts on boiling frogs are – right?

    Eric have you and Noeconmon ever read Benjamin Freedman's 1961 speech? You just spoke of Creel – Freedman was at Versailles. There's other stuff about Woodrow Wilson, the Declaration of Balfour and it's relation to the Federal Reserve:

    The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They [Zionists] told England: “We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war.”

    In other words, they made this deal: “We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay us is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.”

    Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain — that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine — should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war.

    And Freedman is a Jew – but he knows the difference between the dominion heresy of Zionism and Judea …

    Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, they went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like the traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. And they were no good.

    Well, shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.

    The Zionists in London sent these cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis: “Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work, and you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." And that did happen. That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on the moon tonight instead of in this room.

    Remarkable speech – there are audios of it too.

    Challenge – who is the author of this quote:

    A Zionist is not a Jew. A Zionist is a Zionist, period.

  24. Metemneurosis says:

    @Anon the Neocon

    Unlike her, I want it to possess a clear ideology and direction, to promote freedom. I wont cherry pick my interests- here the Kurds, here the Armenians, here the Turks.

    I'm sure this must just be disingenuous. I find it hard to believe that you're incapable of seeing the difference is really one of moral commitments. Ms. Edmonds simply believes there are limits to the things one can do to promote freedom and democracy. Maybe you'd draw the line at raping 6 year olds maybe you wouldn't. I'm not suggesting there'll ever be a situation where this could ever actually help promote freedom or democracy I'm just trying to think of something you might actually balk at. Ms. Edmonds on the other hand perhaps draws the line at supporting cold-blooded killers in Afghanistan or making deals with drug dealers. This is not attributable to ignorance of the theoretical background of foreign policy. To suggest that it is is just ridiculous. Maybe it's a defense mechanism on your part. Maybe you feel it would be easier to persuade people if you could make them think it was some matter of fact they were missing instead.

    The Turks are members of NATO, and we support their ascension to the EU. That has nothing to do with bribery.

    I don't remember anyone ever suggesting we should be supporting the Turks. And what Ms. Edmonds did report definitely has to do with bribery, given that it was bribery.

    As for Hamas here you're just being inconsistent. Haven't you been telling us all along to stop worrying about how bad the people are we're making deals with and just try to see the big picture. Making deals with drug dealers was the lesser of two evils. It was either that or the Soviets would win. I never said Hamas was innocent, I asked for evidence they threatened to undermine democracy in Gaza. I'm suggesting, in line with your previous ideas, that we should recognize Hamas now to help make a peace deal. And as for 'terrorist organization' if we were 'rigorous' about how we applied this word it would apply to the Israeli government and the IDF a thousand times over relative to Hamas. Even Yitzak Rabin, the best of their leaders so far, participated in the '48 massacres.

  25. Metemneurosis says:

    I meant to write "I don't remember anyone suggesting we shouldn't be supporting the Turks.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Anon the Neocon-

    I am sorry if someone finds my diction pretensions or fake. Should I rhyme?

    Consider if a failure on my part – to meet your needs. But then, I am not trying to sell you anything – I have no secret info, I was not at the FBI, and I am quite pleased to be cogent.

    Walter Lippmann. On behalf of the Wilson administration?

    Ok – so what have you read about the Wilson administration? There were a lot of people there with Mr. Wilson, at Versailles – and a lot of people with other people. Lippmann didn't write the 14 points, and its ideas, certainly preceded Lippmann by about a hundred years. But then, I assume, you have not read about that? My apologies, if I am wrong.

    Wilson happened to be among the most ignorant statesmen to ever walk the earth. When referring to Slovenia, he spoke of Slovakia which reminds everyone of someone.

    I am perfectly willing, to admit conspiracy. It is after all, statutorily defined – and the currency of unmerited success.

    Lippmann indeed, was not entirely marginal. With time he learned to appreciate the system – appreciated his errors – appreciated his elitist status.

    He was part of the elite, and he contributed, as its part to our nation's history. But I think Nathan Glazer and Margarette Mead, had more influence than Mr. Lippmann, on American culture. Would you be interested in reading either?

    Why not?

    One of them is Jewish – the other a Quaker. Since Lloyds, and Barrings, and Barclays were all Quaker firms – get the picture?

    Hofstadter's article on Conspiracy/Paranoia, is a must for anyone guided in their understanding of current and past events by knowledge of the particular.

    I evaluated Lippmann in connection with his cynical observations, presented as something which by their implied veracity undermined pro-Democracy arguments.

    I submit to you – that what needs to be debated, is not conspiracy. Because the debate will be short as anyone informed is liable to leave the premise – but how we use our limited foreign policy resources to best ameliorate others' fortune. And that, I am afraid, is a debate to which no one will show, except perhaps a somewhat exclusive crowd – especially if there will be policy implications.

    Vapid ramblings about bullet factories, syllabic meter, and intellectualism glued to the mirror reflected through the haze of your posts amount to little more than insecurity speaking its name – and a sort of name-calling. Tu quoque – I'll whine in response. Like any normal human being, I too, have my insecurities. But responding with a "you too" would mean "if you did it, so can I" – but here you are alone.

    Sorry – the terms "imperialist democracy" is the opposite of hazy.

    But then, if you cannot correctly read what the word "dogma" implies, you fall into the very trap exemplified. A miscomprehension here, a switcheroo of meaning there, and voila – isn't a bullet factory engaged in some stone-age dogma?

    How about this – can you tell the difference between dogma and pragmatism? Between opportunism, and principle?

    Once you get there- middle school (?) – then take a nice summer trip to Pakistan, and bring your little Bible into a mosque (because you have no pockets, and no backpack). Once you are back – share your experience. Or better, just tell them you are an atheist, looking at traditional culture.

    Good luck.

    But hey, the bandages will bring you around to simple language comprehension. Frankly, which part of "executed for apostasy" don't you get? Should the term "Moral equivalence" be put on IQ tests?

    I hope that's arrogant enough for you? 😉

  27. Anonymous says:

    Anonymous @ Aug 20 2009 8:05

    You didn't follow the bullet factory links – hegemony – hubris – are the fuel for dogma.

    Fascism is conformity and crony-sism – a mafia – a crime family.

    Those links led to the Kimmet Brothers – Robert Kimmit who advised Carter to attack Iran – when Carter could have flown to Iran and picked up the hostages in one day – ie no crisis – no dogma issue – but – instead the hostage fiasco led to the sleeper peeper mysto cristo Reagan – whom Robert Kimmit went to work for after he assured, as Carters Military Afairs adviser, that Carter would loose.

    Early in 2001 Bobby Kimmit, while he was the CEO for United Defense, also became the foreign policy editorial director at AOL -Time Warner (CNN) – the mainstream propaganda machine – how many bullet factory bosses run the media – every major outlet has their boards flooded with them.

    General Mark Kimmit, Bobby's brother, was in charge of Abu Gharib when those photos released, and while Bobby was still the foreign news director at CNN and boss at United Defense.

    Let's see if you're smart as a sea cucumber: Why were those photos released – to force a national apology – NO – to change US policy – NO – to arrest a few bad apple underlings – NO – those photos were released for one reason and one reason only – to inflame Islam – to perpetuate the genocide dogma of our fascist government and to test the limits of our compliance and conformity.

    For his part in Abu Gharib – Mark Kimmit was promoted to a nice job in the pentagon – instead of being fired for dereliction of duty – where he polishes the top brass knobs. Robert Kimmit for doing his part at the propaganda machine and the bullet factory was appointed to assistant secretary of the treasury.

    I'll leave it to others to conclude the who is a twitless mindless dweeb. You still say words without context – you're a flesh-o-thesaurus, a dinosaur of dogma complacency and conformity – who speaks and says nothing – an Authur Mckinsey. You are what you claim to be against – you are both Dorian and the portrait you can't bear to view, You hide your fears behind words that carry no meaning. There's nothing to fear my friend – everything has a beginning – everything has an end – and there is no escape.

  28. Eric Pottenger says:

    @ anon the neocon

    please, let's forget the whole Lippmann exchange. if you read my previous posts more closely, you'll soon discover that I'm INVESTIGATING these people, these ideas, this period, and so on. I'm not gonna stop in the middle of my research (or, rather, at the beginning) and get directed around by some phantom-like suggestions that come from a voice that I don't even agree with.

    here's your style: "read margaret meade" "and why not?"

    here's my style: before you make one more suggestion, one more comment; before you try and "help" one more person, try listening to David Bowie's Hunky Dory about a thousand times. try listening to bob dylan's "hard rain" ten thousand times. or sam cooke's gospel songs. or janis joplin.

    or perhaps you like jazz? pharoah sanders is good. sun ra helps. john coltrane is powerful. I especially like the song "wise one" on the album Crescent. you should turn off the computer. stop trying to impress the group that you've thought through all their mistaken impressions.

    are you really here to "help'?

    it seems you think so. is that right? you want to "help" people? you want to "help" me? you want to help the Pygmies?

    God bless you child!

    if you live in the United States, you must certainly know that we have our own problems as well. you must know that our culture isn't "probably diseased" but that it "is diseased." I'm not crying about it, merely to draw your attention to my suffering soul. I'm merely stating my subjective observation, because, well, I live here.

    just what do you hope to export to the Pygmies? our healthy democracy? our famous apathy? our despicable complicity?

  29. Eric Pottenger says:

    @ anon the neocon cont.

    you were the one to mention apathy, weren't you? don't you think that you should come around to understanding this apathy, instead of merely BLAMING the world's problems upon it? and so WHY do you think Americans are apathetic? this is a challenging question, not an easy answer… but do you ask it? are you sincere in your pursuit of this answer? to you think about solving it in creative terms?

    it seems that your worldview is based upon a compromise with this apathy, and with other overriding limitations. have you ever challenged that? it's perfectly fine to say, as kissinger says, that "peace" is a strategic balancing act between powers at war. but the proof is always in the pudding, isn't it. is Kissinger correct? is Kissinger an "interested" party? is Kissinger intellectually lazy? is Kissinger the same man that famously said, "Power is the greatest aphrodesiac." yes, I think it was Kissinger that said that. and do I want to pin my entire worldview on a man like this? or upon someone LIKE Kissinger?

    to each their own.

    one thing about Lippmann (and I'll make this observation about a number of powerful individuals, social thinkers, scientists, etc.–one thing that they all have in common is that, although many of them are brilliant; although many of them discover "truths" about people, about society, about behavior–yet it seems their energy always wanes whenever it comes to CREATING POSSIBILITIES. yes, they always seem to dismiss possibilities under the rug of an oppressive "human nature."

    that's Lippmann. is it meade? or nathan glazer? or anyone else you think brilliant; that you're suggesting I read?

    like I urged you to do: try listening to the musicians I listed above. lose yourself for awhile. are you near a clean river? go throw yourself in. spend a night star gazing. lay back on the earth, bend your head back, feel the curve of the universe behind you. feel the earth rotate underneath you.

    you claimed to "simplify" your worldview, perhaps to better use it as a tool. it should be clear by now that I think you could use an infusion of the universal love force in your thinking, but that's merely my opinion. perhaps you have thought too much, neocon, forgotten what all this thinking is directed toward?

    whatever the case, ask yourself one more time just what it is that America can offer the Pygmies, and why. try thinking "foundational."

  30. Comment deleted
    This post has been removed by the author.
    August 13, 2009 9:28 PM
    ———-
    Comment deleted
    This post has been removed by the author.
    August 14, 2009 12:22 AM
    ———-

    Sibel…kinda surprised that the two posts I put up on the thread were removed. The topic was about Schakowsky's son-in-law drowning off Mexico while snorkeling. Your response was that her husband should be someone of interest in the investigation.

    I just went back to look at the thread, and my comments and your responses were not there anymore. Another connection that came to mind is the Blackwater news surge of late.

    Thanks,
    Styve

  31. Sorry, I was mistaken re what thread my posts were/are on. They are still there. Nevermind…

    S

  32. Anonymous says:

    News with a Turkish Hair Twister

    GERMANY: Terror Plot Emerges as Secret Service Game

    (I wonder how many other Terror plots fall into that category – perhaps more to come – anyway …..)

    First – from the mouths of the media we're told …
    BERLIN, Aug 20 (IPS) – It was announced as a terror plot busted. German police had captured three young Muslim men in the small village Medebach-Oberschledor, …
    The three men, and a fourth, who was captured a year later in Turkey, wanted to bomb U.S. military and other facilities in Germany, and …. their plans were in retaliation against the U.S. war on 'Islamic terrorism', especially the abuse of hundreds of Muslims detained at Guantanamo prison. German authorities and the media dubbed the four men 'the Sauerland group', in reference to the region where they were captured.

    Whoa – that's scary – Young Muslim Males and more (Eeegads) Jihad dogma – honey – get out the radiation … errr – anti Hydrogen Peroxide suits …. but then we learned …

    But now, the case has ceased to be "the serious terrorist threat" … It is now a mysterious puzzle of secret service games, prosecutors' alarmism spread by the media,… the supposedly dangerous group members have emerged as no more than some muddle-heads. They had no links whatsoever to international Islamic terror groups.

    Whoooops – I want my Orange Alert Back – it feels so . so . like being a Viagra drenched Anti Dogmatic Mericon … shit – just a bunch of low iodine muggles making the 6 o'clock News in Munich … I guess Mericon Idol was in reruns.

    Moreover, the fifth member of the group, yet to be captured, has been described as a Turkish national known only as Mevlut K. He now appears as an informer of the Turkish national intelligence organisation (MIT, after its Turkish name). He was the key figure in the plot, according to confessions by other members of the Sauerland group … 'K' had procured 26 fuses for the bombs the group was supposed to make, Selek said. Only, the fuses were useless … "We knew that Mevlut had links with several secret services," Gelowicz told the court. … despite warnings that the German police were constantly informed of their actions, the four men continued their preparations until they were captured.

    Shit – shit – shit – if they could have only gone through with it we could aborted the fetuses of young Islamic mothers with tactical nukes all over Iran – now that's TV worth watching!

    You know how to tell you live in a fascist pretense of a republic – when psychiatrist prescribe internment for 911 Truth Activists. Will the very famous Robert Novak of the NYT be interned as well for saying Security experts and airline officials agree privately that the simultaneous hijacking of four jetliners was an "inside job," probably indicating complicity beyond malfeasance. At least we'll waste away in FEMA camps that in some strange way are beginning to look more and more justified. Maybe Tom Ridge will be there too due to words let loose with a slip of his thin slobbery lips (the corner of his mouth looks just like Barney Franks mouth – Dubby called him Frank Burns – what is that all about?) and said I was pressured to raise terror alert to help Bush Win.

    I'll see ya in camp folks – the revolution has begun.

  33. Anonymous says:

    Eric – you'll love this Rollin `n Tumblin cover – very naughty.

  34. Anonymous says:
  35. Anonymous says:
  36. Anonymous says:

    Anon the Neocon-

    @Anonymous

    -would sure be nice if you had a tag, since the Anonymity is multiplying!

    you say that the torture photos were released to inflame Islam

    And you are rather convinced of it. No doubt eh? Hubris, hegemony, dogma anyone? Oh no – watch out, another anonymous user looking to chop-off a crooks hand. Only in this case, I am the "crook" because I don't fit your view, and the chopping is done through one gigantic ad hominem attack which is devoid of a single falsifiable argument. Wait, did I just commit "moral equivalency"!? Oh oh – I must be getting smarter.

    Well – leaving aside the issue of torture, and the Iraq invasion, and a slew of other moral questions – why were those photos "released"?

    First, you'd be hard up proving they enjoyed any kind of "release". Second, their impact on our morale, and that of the enemy, would reveal that any plausible "release" was either done by amateurs, or people deliberately bent on hurting Americans.

    You worry about the Kimmitt family. Fabulous. And your issue with them is? That they produced three individuals who had brilliantly served their country?

    You may not like bullet factories, but as the saying goes – he who doesn't pay his army, will pay to the army of the invader. There are always those who prefer the invader, because from afar, he is too sexy, while their immediate surroundings remind them of their impotence.

    Regardless of your previous praise ,your prose far surpasses my own…but it is a distraction. Try staying focused, if you actually want me to say something – otherwise, I'll just consider it a provocation.

    @Eric Pottenger

    WHY do you think Americans are apathetic?

    Go ahead, give me your reason?

    Or shall I guess? You are implying that since our elites, political and intellectual are effete, and not into Zander's Art of the Possible they end up leeching off society, and the result is lack of "motivation" among the electorate?

    Ok, so my question is loaded. Still. Am I right/wrong?

    are you really here to "help'?

    Why are you here, if I may ask? Am I allowed to be here, only if I am here to "help", or if I agree with everyone. Must I say "oh Mrs. Edmonds, you are great" (I already did, by the way) to be authorized? DO I need to justify my presence? In which case, I'd ask for justification from everyone else…you know what, I'll tell you why I am here, in the end of my comment…

    Apparently I don't sound very human. Naturally I need to listen to music. Something about me, gives the impression I am atonal, achromatic…do you imagine me as Dr. Strangelove?

    So effectively, you are blaming Lippmann and ilk for being what – cynical?

    I mentioned Glazer and Mead only because I suspect that reading Lippmann is never done in good faith, or from an informed perspective. It's either those bent on finding conspiracy (and you introduced that term), or those cynical enough to read his earlier works.

  37. Anonymous says:

    Mead and Glazer both look at society from a totally different perspective, and have had profound influence on our self-perception. That was why I suggested them. Lippmann, for all his brilliance, died with his death. So there is no durable impact. Which is not to distract from his immediate interwar impact.

    Mr. Kissinger, my dear – parent? (since I am presumably your "child" – or were you referring to some naivete on my part) – was dedicated to pragmatism. Certain anonymous commentators on this blog, tend to confuse terms, and/or see little utility n meaning as such, unless it has to do with bullet factories (if a bullet cuts you down, and no one is there to hear it – did it cut you down?) – so the distinction may be lost on them.

    As for aphrodisiacs and power. If indeed Mr. Kissinger spoke those words, I dare say, he was proof to the contrary. I'd presume that most men seek power, precisely because of their succeptibility to aphrodisiacs.

    Or to be more precise, our original sin, is our depravity. We don't need the power to have it, we just need the power to satisfy it. But – you are speaking of the depraved – not dogma, politics, or democracy – just good'ol human nature.

    @Metemneurosis

    I think we both like rigor.

    Hamas cannot be compared to the Israeli government. I see no parallel whatsoever.

    Terrorism is defined by its means, not source. The IDF has never resorted to a single act of terrorism that I can recall.

    Per Hamas, are you insisting that I provide you a timeline of its terrorist activity?

    What are you insistint? Are you stomping that I accept some faint resemblence between IDF and Hamas tactics?

    As for degrees of difference between myself and Mrs. Edmonds.

    I am not sure what the difference is, if there is one. Just like her, I want my democracy, to always remain a democracy. I don't need no corrupt politicians, nor deals with drug dealers, or terrorists. I don't know, what the difference is.

    What I do know, is that a knowledge of foreign policy, history, and theory, is indispensable for anyone attempting to understand the modern world. Without such knowledge, you mis-attribute causality.

    Either the earth is a sphere, or its a square. You can't have both, and you can't know it, without empirical methods. If you want to circumnavigate it – you're forced to bet its round.

    I am just as worried about Turkish influence as Mrs. Edmonds – but I am afraid she has reduced this issue to a joke – at least the way I see it.

    Half of what she ascribes to the Turkish lobby, is a kind of legal extortion practiced by certain Congressman. They know damn well that someone will pay, and they solicit their vote. But this is in the realm of political science, not FBI wiretapping.

    Look- I want to be clear – I don't understand anyone, who is against democracy. You are all here reading Mrs. Edmonds, because you are free women and men. Get off your high-horses, and admit for once, that you are privileged. If you do sense tension on my part – well, that is its source. I hear a bunch of spoiled ungrateful self-haters. And it makes me sick. I try to be nice about it – but there – you have proof that I am just as human as you. Just say it damn it, say it "we are privileged" and "yes, it isn't perfect, but I am privileged to be born into the product of my ancestors blood and sweat"

    And if you can't say it – well, you're the reason the world is the way it is. There is no "creativity" where there is no appreciation. Don't blame Kimmitt – blame your nihilistic self.

  38. Metemneurosis says:

    @ Anon the Neocon

    The parallel between Hamas and the Israeli government is simple they both target civilians. In the past year Hamas killed 24 Israeli's of which at least 14 were military and 9 of those were during Cast Lead inside Gaza. In other words those 9 were done in completely legal self defense. On the other hand Israel killed at least 1,4000 civilians. Like shooting fish in a barrel. I can believe as many as a hundred maybe two hundred tops were unintended casualties. But I'm not naive and neither are you. Israel targeted all kinds of buildings it had no reason to target knowing civilians were nearby or in them. They shot people then waited for ambulances to come and shot the paramedics. Even their own soldiers are attesting to war crimes. Israel was founded on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and since even before 48 has had a consistent policy of economic and psychological terror as well as violence against the Palestinian population. The testimony of Israel's own soldiers, the UN and every respectable humanitarian group for decades attests to this. If that's not terror what is? The population of Gaza is slowly starving, they don't have enough fuel for power. Any person who has even the slightest sense knows that the entire purpose of this, the whole reason Israel refuses to come to the table to discuss peace, the whole reason they howl with glee when Hamas (whom they virtually created by funding the most militant people they could find to counter the PLO) fires rockets into Israel is because they hope to eventually make life so miserable for the Palestinians that they will emigrate elsewhere or that Jordan and Egypt will agree to take them off their hands so that all the land can be settled by racist Jewish zealots. At least they hope to do that with whatever Palestinians they don't manage to slaughter or imprison between now and then.

    I never asked for proof that Hamas is a terrorist organization. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your contention that they pose a threat to future democratic processes in Gaza. I'm sure you must have understood that the first time I wrote it.

    What I do know, is that a knowledge of foreign policy, history, and theory, is indispensable for anyone attempting to understand the modern world. Without such knowledge, you mis-attribute causality.

    I definitely agree it helps immensely. Nothing to do with my point.

    As for whether our congressmen are extorting funds legally from foreign lobbies as you suggest. Even if this were true 1) if how they're voting is affected by this game it's definitely wrong and undermines what should be a DEMOCRATIC process. 2) Maybe it shouldn't be legal, and thus it's still worth exposing and talking about.

    Against democracy? No one here has said they're against democracy. If you're for 'rigor' try avoiding these kinds of rhetorical jabs.

    Democracy is good because it's the type of government that has done the best job so far at protecting people from oppression by government. It's a means to an enjoyable life. It's not the end all be all. The enjoyable and meaningful life is the end all. I'm for democracy I'm just not for ending a bunch of peoples lives unnecessarily and against their will or torturing them unnecessarily to get it. I see no reason to believe there aren't ways to promote democracy that don't require this. And I'm also of the mind that in some cases less than democracy for twenty years or with a slow progress toward democracy can be a much less painful way to achieve that end.

  39. Metemneurosis says:

    As for whether I'm spoiled and privileged, please don't stoop to this ridiculous republican tactic. Criticizing American policy is part of what it means to be an American. But while were on it, yes I do value the freedoms I still have in this country. I also value the ones I still have in practice if no legally anymore, like the sixth amendment. That's why I'm here. And yes I am spoiled and privileged. Relative to many other parts of the world most Americans are. I could for instance have been born an Arab in Israel.

    If you're so worried about democracy I'd like to see you on our side regarding the assault on our civil liberties here in our democracy.

  40. Anonymous says:

    Dear Anonymous Aug 21 2009 12:51

    Love your matzo balls! Where to begin – where to begin …. aahhh … here's a spot …

    Wait, did I just commit "moral equivalency"!

    A recent study as shown when a Duckbill Thesaurus spends too much time praising his reflection in a mirror with the disclaimer, "objects appear larger than they are" often suffer from a unique form of dementia whereby they easily, sometimes purposely, confuse "moral equivalency" with "moral illiteracy". These cases are under review, but current therapies, like coddling and snickering out of view are recommended until the big padded FEMA playpens arrive.

    But most of all – I loved you're very clever allegorical call to change Charles Mansion's status from mass murderer to saint with a very splendid, yet not too unexpected bit-o-masturbation with words by referring to the genocidal war profiteering Kimmit Klux Klan with this gem of iambic: That they produced three individuals who had brilliantly served their country?

    For a wet dream: That is dry indeed!

    PS
    You should handout coupons with each post!!

  41. Sibel my name is Randy Albert and I just want to tell you that you are an inspiration to all of us that have been stepped on by big brother. I was talking to Janice with the 911 Truth Commission about your meeting on August 9th and we were both very impressed by what you had to say. I have ran a taxi service in Elk City, Oklahoma for ten years and many bad things have happened to me for looking into local, state, and federal corruption. I have had my phones tampered with and many calls have been blocked to destroy my business. I have had problems threw seventeen different carriers including land line and cellular. I have a very shocking story to share with you and if you can spare a few minutes please e-mail me at insanityexpress8212222@gmail.com

  42. Anonymous says:

    Anon the-X(?) Neocon-

    Israel has never targeted civilians. This is a "Blood Libel". Collateral damage is the correct word. And the Incessant need to reject "collateral damage" as a useful term, is pathological of militant pacifists (oxymoron?)

    A terrorist group is defined by the deliberate usage of asymmetric warfare against civilian populations.

    I don't know who is naive – but believe you me – war is never pretty. Israel went after Hamas in Gaza, and Hamas made sure the Palestinian people bled.

    I am not defending all and every action of the IDF – soldiers are soldiers, and never in history was there an army which didn't have its handful of idiots. The proper name for them is sadists, or loose-cannons. And blaming the military context is like blaming the air for our respiration.

    A terrorist organizations such as Hamas, by definition cannot ever enjoy the status of the security forces of an armed state, controlled by a people's representatives, and granted international legitimacy.

    Hamas functions like the mob of the 20-30s – they rig their districts under the barrel of a gun and sell the ballot to themselves! (to answer your "threat to democracy" idea)

    Hamas and its Arab allies- not the IDF – proceeds to terrorize Palestinians into submission – like the Red Terror of 1918 – and sacrifice them like lamb for the sake of Al-Dawa.

    You are stating that the state of Israel has had as policy, terrorizing and destroying the "Palestinian People". I do not agree with this. You no doubt, also subscribe to the equation of Zionism = Racism. This is pure anti-Semitism.

    In either case, you are not describing terrorism, but terrror. Any asymmetry, will produce endless anecdotes to back up your accusation of "terrorizing."

    Anyone who "looks" poor or like a "victim" – you will accept as a victim. He who cries loud enough, is the one most hurt.

    I question this logic.

    No one here has said they're against democracy. is a patently false statement.

    Let's remain rigorous please.

    I first and foremost speak of "democracy" in relation to the one you all enjoy!

  43. Anonymous says:

    Look, either you support the government in removing dictators, or you defend the dictators. Most of you have made the illogical and ruinous decision to go with the later – because of your distrust of the former. You are then mislead by the likes of Edmonds and Democracy Now, to obsesses over our imperfections, while women are forced to sell food for sex in a country where all of NATO cannot be bothered to do much – because our electorates don't give a damn about an Afghani woman – they are too busy fretting over their damned Affirmative Action.

    It is thanks to your blindness, that our country has often ended up working with dictators. Since you don't appreciate what you have – not one of you can answer my question about sharing it with others. And you wonder that our elites work with Saudi Arabia, China, and other rot of the world. Who's to show them, that American's are in the least bothered? And when they are bothered, its on the basis of some inane pathology, amorphous bags of resentments against Kennedy and Nixon. They'd rather sling guns to a health care debate, than read up on world history. It's ludicrous.

    Foreign Policy makers know that most American's could care less about Africa, and they are not going to risk our security for a bunch of incoherent clap-trap.

    As brilliant and courageous Mrs. Edmonds may be, she is fundamentally wrong. She has no experience of democracy, and every limitation appears as "undemocratic". She is then socialized into the ungrateful/alienated anti-system community, which reinforces her ideas – and she in turn reinforces yours, through a lack of professionalism.

    She mis-attributes intentions and causality in the system, because she is privileged enough to let her arrogant assumptions about what she heard and saw, run amok. In our country, since we are a democracy, she can say what ever she believes.

    You guys would be the first I am sure to defend a system in which the likes of Mrs. Edmonds would disappear for the sake of defending against destabilization from Uncle Sam. If Uncle Sam dared to take her equivalent say in Iran – and try to help her – you already made your positions clear.

    Let me sum up the mindset here – we're all victims of repressions…and if you dare say we are not – you forget that its our privilege to pretend we are.

    Hence you caricature me as a Mafioso, heartless thug, and "dogmatic" maniac.

    Obviously – I burst your spoilt bubble.

    Hey – if that's what too much democracy does to the brain, then I give up right now. You are right. We better think and pause before we spread this rot. Hey, if it's not perfect, and not a utopia – then we prefer Hell!

  44. Kingfisher says:

    "Anyone who "looks" poor or like a "victim" – you will accept as a victim. He who cries loud enough, is the one most hurt.
    I question this logic."

    Pot, meet kettle. As a supporter of Israel are you really going to challenge others about playing the victim card?

  45. Kingfisher says:

    "You are then mislead by the likes of Edmonds and Democracy Now, to obsesses over our imperfections, while women are forced to sell food for sex in a country where all of NATO cannot be bothered to do much"

    Please tell where this wonderful country is where women will provide you a full meal in exchange for you having sex with them!

  46. Kingfisher says:

    "Look, either you support the government in removing dictators, or you defend the dictators."

    No, that’s a false dichotomy. As a realist I am inclined to support dictators and strongmen for the purposes of stability or them being conductive to our national interests; that does not necessarily mean that I don’t abhor their conduct. They may be an SOB, but they can be our SOB.

    You confuse your personal disgust for dictators, with a moral disgust for backing dictators. Coincidentally this is the same thing the antiwar liberals that you so bemoan do: they confuse their personal disgust at the violence of war, with a moral disgust for any war.

    "It is thanks to your blindness, that our country has often ended up working with dictators. Since you don't appreciate what you have – not one of you can answer my question about sharing it with others."

    I appreciate fully what we have, so I would rather not mortgage it to finance the cost of spreading it to others.
    Others can share in it by coming to our country and joining our tribe. This we can reasonably ensure, and can be certain they value it as much as we do because it requires a significant effort on their part. Going around “spreading freedom” to the world ensures that people will not value it. People do not value things that they are just given without having put any effort into.

  47. Metemneurosis says:

    @Anon the Neocon

    I see now that you've been put on the defensive you're reverting to the typical strategy of crying anti-semitism. In this regard I'd simply like to point out that the most anti-semitic country on earth is Israel. (psst Arabs are Semites) In an earlier agreement Israel signed with the Palestinians (I forget which one and it doesn't really matter) Gaza was given rights to the natural resources up to 20 miles off it's coast. This included fishing rights. Israel for the last 10 years or so has consistently pushed this back by arresting, firing water canons at, and shooting and killing fishermen who come out farther than they want. This now happens if they get more than a mile off shore. This is just the most blatant example of targeting civilians. I could go through a lot more. But I get the feeling you wouldn't accept any of them.

    Israel's propaganda wing (public relations if you will) is the best in the world. They are certainly masters at plausible deniability of guilt. We weren't trying to . . . Fill in the blank.

    Your simple assertion that Hamas rigs elections doesn't carry much weight given your unrealistic attitude towards the facts on the ground there. I'll believe it when I read it in a credible source.

    Note that I don't love Hamas or think that they're saints. I can't even say I'd be surprised if I found out you were right. But as of now I doubt it. The election of Hamas was widely praised as the first free and fair democratic election in the Arab world. The fact that you are so eager to find an explanation for why Hamas shouldn't be recognized makes me suspicious that your going to be just one more guy who preaches democracy till someone inconvenient gets elected. And in every case you'll have a wonderful explanation for why we should make an exception.

    I realize, of course, that after Fatah illegally tried to take over from Hamas and got themselves kicked out, Hamas's rule is no longer within the legal bounds. But then neither is Abbas's. According to their constitution if he wants to relieve Haniyeh then it falls to the cabinet (i.e. Hamas) to select a new leader. There's no provision in their constitution for the current situation so their both illegally ruling as it stands.

    And I can understand that coming here you're having to defend yourself against about 5 or 6 people now but first you had to know this is what would happen, especially when you chose that name. You were trying to provoke and you did. Which is fine by me, I'm just saying . . .

    Anyway, your arguments are starting to sound less reasoned and more just like angry lashing out. Just because people disagreed with you one how we should go about promoting it doesn't mean they're "against democracy". And as to whether anyone can answer your question about sharing it with others I answered you by giving you what I was worried would be an overly long and boring answer that might therefore look pretentious quite a while back. I'm not going to start over. If your not satisfied by that answer (and I'm not claiming it's perfect) then you should have picked it apart at the time.

    But maybe I'm being unfair in attributing unhing-edness to you. Maybe it sounds that way to me because when your addressing me you seem to really be arguing against one monolithic "Sibel Edmonds fan". I'm not really hopeful of meaningful debate any more but the first step would be to distinguish the debaters.

  48. If by 'asymmetrical warfare' you mean 'the people are fighting and dying', then you've hit the nail on the head.

    It's a blanket term with an easily adaptable definition.

    They're not going to march rank and file in pretty patterns for the aircraft.

    By one definition, threatening to knowingly bomb civilians in a disproportionate response is terrorism as well.

    Tell me, what is a barbarian?

  49. Anonymous says:

    Please tell where this wonderful country is where women will provide you a full meal in exchange for you having sex with them!

    Aaaah.

    It is located somewhere between the river Pianj, and the Mountain of Dead Hindus 😉

    As a supporter of Israel are you really going to challenge others about playing the victim card?

    Partly true. But we are changing this.

    As per your other comment Kingfisher. I agree – and I think I can agree with that. It is a serious objection and/or position, to which I can also withdraw, if it is indeed beyond our means, to spread the wealth.

    @Metemnereusis

    Bush rushed the Palestinian elections. No one was ready – and it was against his advisers advice. Participating in an election, does not make you democratic. The issue was as I wrote up-there, that these guys act like thugs. They are terrorists, first and foremost against the Palestinian people.

    And to me, it's not about Palestinians being Semites. You see, they are Arabs, and not even Palestinians.

    The Turks, for all their faults, accepted a great deal of refugees from non-Turkish Balkans and the Caucauses. Why can't Arabs find decent homes for their "Palestinians". Why are they being persecuted in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon? What's the deal?

    I don't think I am being evasive or stooping to name-calling.

    I think it is self-evident, what I said above about democracy and Edmonds readers. It's like listening to Democracy Now – half the time you know these people are just expression their own ethnocentric agenda.

    Look – again, either you understand that you are privileged or you don't. Once you do,you have to solve the riddle of what to do about the tiers état. And I think I put it pretty well up there. Once Edmonds is put in prison – I will agree with all of you – that the work of the Founders has been negated. But let's get there first, shall we?

    My message to Mrs. Edmonds is simple – why not spill all the beans now?

    That's all I want to know. Why engage in elaborate games with Ghirardi and comp? What's the point?

  50. Anonymous says:

    Anon the Neocon – the above is by me, sorry, didn't put my name on it.

Speak Your Mind